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Homeward Bound: Community Reactions

Jun 26, 2013

by Alison Feldmann

Etsy.com handmade and vintage goods

We recently published a response to Emily Matchar’s new book, Homeward Bound: Why Women Are Embracing the New Domesticity. In the book, Matchar describes a homespun rebellion taking place, as twenty- and thirty-something women “embrace the domestic in the service of environmentalism, DIY culture, and personal fulfillment” and draws some controversial conclusions about the implications of this movement.

We asked Etsy Blog readers if they identified with the movement Emily Matchar describes, as well as what they considered success and ambition. The response? Well, it was momentous, with almost 300 insightful comments (and counting). Today we’re sharing your thoughts and feedback.

Some saw similarities between the new domesticity and movements of the past.

“As someone who became involved in the consumer co-op movement back in the 1970s, I see the DIY movement as something very similar; it’s about self-sifficiency and helping each other succeed, and choosing your own work conditions and priorities. If many of us choose not to be involved in corporate culture, I see that more as a boycott than as a retreat.” — Sharon Parker of Arty Didact

Tiffany explained why advancing in corporate culture is not the true measure of success.

“It is not because I am a woman that I am not ‘aiming’ toward a mainstream job; it is because those jobs are not for me. They are not for most conscious people. We accept them when we feel we must…The local, handmade movement is not a retreat but an acceptance of the reality of our current world…If we can liberate our lives and make choices that reflect our core values and intuition, that is a great task. It is greater than any corner office ambitions. Matchar’s framework of what constitutes success is very limited. I hope one day she will be able to shatter her conceptual ceiling and see that humanity’s potential goes far beyond pay scale and vacation hours.” — Tiffany Key of Haru Aki

Many voiced why they seek a creative outlet, even if it never pans out as a full-time job.

“Like many Etsy sellers, I don’t make my primary income through my craft. Instead, I find that having a creative outlet fulfills a part of me that my lawyer job (which I absolutely love) does not. I agree that women should agitate for better working conditions. I also agree that women should find fulfillment in their working lives, and that this can be accomplished by finding a creative outlet, and maybe even making some money while doing so. I think we can do both, and I think many of us are doing just that.” — Valerie of Valerie’s Stitchery

Others expressed why they’ve chosen to exit corporate culture and the success they’ve found.

“…What kind of a society do we want to live in? I have been a woman in a suit, and that was fun for a while, but then my situation changed and my priorities too. I want to be flexible enough to base my worklife around my child and health. Etsy is just a small but really enjoyable part of this. My husband is not happy with his 9 to 6 job, and it looks like my business may be able to offer him a job in the next couple of years, as as well as providing freelance work for other craftspeople…It was easier in lots of ways to have a job with regular income, but not as satisfying.” — Diane McFarlane of McFarlane Metal

Hollie Wilson mused upon entrepreneurship, ambition, and human nature.

“I’m convinced that everyone (with any amount of ambition) who is currently working for someone else is dreaming of the day when they’ll be working for themselves. Creating your own income is not retreating — it’s advancing. Running my own shop has in no way broken any ‘promises’ — it’s given me the freedom to make my own promises.” — Hollie Wilson of The Tufted Frog

And Anne thought about the future.

“…We need to remember that across genres, platforms, ages, and decades 80 percent of businesses fail. This morning my third sale emerged from my shop, and the cold reality is that, divided by the hours I’ve put in, maybe I’ve made 5 cents an hour. But it’s laying groundwork, I’m learning this framework, and I’ve great hopes for eventually garnering momentum toward my goal of geographically independent income. I’m glad that someone is out there giving voice to keeping women empowered in corporate America.” — Anne from Free Range Cowgirl

Editors’ Note: We shortened comments for length. To read all of the comments in full, please visit the original post.

2 Featured Comments

  • slathered

    Sharon Moores from slathered said 4 years ago Featured

    I'm not very domestic. But illness changed my mind about that a bit. I lost last summer to cancer. Surgery and radioactivity kept me from my daughter during her summer break. I'm much better, but long-term effects of the illness are forcing me to keep it more low-key this summer than we normally would. That means less running off to the water park all day, but more things like making lemonade from scratch. It's not the type of thing I used to enjoy, but just getting to do something with my child has hit home how comforting and bonding domesticity can be. Am I going to be making everyone's clothes and stock-piling preserves? No. But there is a lot to be said for dialing our lives back and taking the time to do things ourselves.

  • SeptemberHouse

    Corinne from SeptemberHouse said 4 years ago Featured

    I recommend reading this book. The discussion on crafting and Etsy is really just a small part of it and throughout the rest of the book many very important questions and ideas are raised. I found Emily Matchar's voice one that very much needs to be heard. To me, 'Homeward Bound' was a breath of fresh air as well as a dose of hard reality and I am so glad I read it.

69 comments

  • lovelygifts

    Linda from lovelygifts said 4 years ago

    I love the creative outlet that etsy gives me.

  • MegansMenagerie

    Megan from MegansMenagerie said 4 years ago

    My journey with Etsy is amazing. I'm thrilled to be part of it!

  • LivingVintage

    LivingVintage from LivingVintage said 4 years ago

    Interesting! I tried to outsource all my domesticity needs, but it didn't work out.

  • orchardfarmsoap

    Kate Jaeckel from orchardfarmsoap said 4 years ago

    exactly

  • Krystyna81

    Kristina from Krystyna81 said 4 years ago

    Freedom is a glorious thing. freedom to set your own hours, freedom to chose your own design, freedom to make mistakes, freedom to take chances. When you are your own boss, it is all on your shoulders. That freedom is earned through a lot of lean times, but at least you know that there is no "higher up" that can turn around and take it away at any moment.

  • H88255

    H88255 from HillarysSuperfoods said 4 years ago

    Wonderful comments. I agree with all of them! Etsy has offered women (and everyone) a chance to be creative, successful, and do what inspires them. That is priceless in itself!

  • NicolasKnitKnacks

    Nicola and Jessica Belton from CelticKnittingCo said 4 years ago

    Great article!

  • DeepSilence

    Sonja Bikić from DeepSilence said 4 years ago

    interesting

  • workingthewool

    workingthewool from workingthewool said 4 years ago

    Make stuff, sell stuff! I had a well-enough-paying job that I recently quit because I had a disagreement with my boss. She thought I should work nearly a whole year with only one single requested extra day off (due to "poor staffing") and I didn't! Nuts to that! I am smart, experienced, creative and talented enough to market my products in a serious manner. Full steam ahead!

  • sdrafke

    Suzette from Suzetteupcycled said 4 years ago

    Our culture has made women feel that they need to be like MEN. Like we are not productive members of society if we do not bring home the big paychecks... So our children suffer neglect due to this which has been going on WAY too long! We are MORE then what our paycheck is! MEN also need outlets that do not involve their jobs. Men cook, golf, do artwork, go boating, etc. so what's so new about that? If you are creative & artistic you MUST have a creative outlet or you will be very unhappy indeed! Everyone needs to have some other interests beside their paying jobs/careers. You also need to have more than one stream of income JUST IN CASE because you never know how secure your job is right now!

  • DeepSilence

    Sonja Bikić from DeepSilence said 4 years ago

    So good.

  • PoleStar

    Jennifer Juniper from PoleStar said 4 years ago

    Awesome follow-up, thanks!

  • materialrat

    Margarita Rat from PackRatJewelry said 4 years ago

    Wonderful! So inspirational!

  • ohnoelia

    ohnoelia from Arkissa said 4 years ago

    Etsy is a great way to open your store and creations to the world. I love it! For Latin America its much harder only because we cant get the money from Paypal, just use it to keep purchasing online.

  • JewelrybyDorothy

    Dorothy from JewelrybyDorothy said 4 years ago

    Interesting article!

  • MorningdewPhoto

    Shabnam Khosrowshahi-Gow from morningdewphoto said 4 years ago

    very interesting!

  • NirvanaRoad

    Lisa from NirvanaRoad said 4 years ago

    Etsy is a fabulous platform for artisans!

  • AbleAprons

    Erika Kelly from PortlandApronCompany said 4 years ago

    I loved this discussion! Thank you for re-posting some of its highlights. They were very interesting to read!

  • Pysar

    Yuri Pysar from Pysar said 4 years ago

    awesome!

  • slathered

    Sharon Moores from slathered said 4 years ago Featured

    I'm not very domestic. But illness changed my mind about that a bit. I lost last summer to cancer. Surgery and radioactivity kept me from my daughter during her summer break. I'm much better, but long-term effects of the illness are forcing me to keep it more low-key this summer than we normally would. That means less running off to the water park all day, but more things like making lemonade from scratch. It's not the type of thing I used to enjoy, but just getting to do something with my child has hit home how comforting and bonding domesticity can be. Am I going to be making everyone's clothes and stock-piling preserves? No. But there is a lot to be said for dialing our lives back and taking the time to do things ourselves.

  • SeptemberHouse

    Corinne from SeptemberHouse said 4 years ago Featured

    I recommend reading this book. The discussion on crafting and Etsy is really just a small part of it and throughout the rest of the book many very important questions and ideas are raised. I found Emily Matchar's voice one that very much needs to be heard. To me, 'Homeward Bound' was a breath of fresh air as well as a dose of hard reality and I am so glad I read it.

  • Agasart

    Aga from AgasJourney said 4 years ago

    Beautiful, inspiring and wise points of view. fantastic post. Thank you for sharing.

  • seasprout

    Amanda from seasprout said 4 years ago

    So wonderful!

  • richdon1

    Rich and Dona from TheCottageMouse said 4 years ago

    I will say it over and over again, do what makes you happy. You will never be if your goal is to make everyone around you happy instead...Wonderful follow up to the original post.

  • agebo

    Ann Cosgrove from acbcDesign said 4 years ago

    We are fortunate enough to live in a time where you can do what makes you happy. Etsy is an amazing part of letting people create and share things that they love making - whether it is a full time job or not. Great follow up to that original article.

  • debvasbinder

    Deb Vasbinder from BabyCuteBaby said 4 years ago

    Doing what makes "you" happy is truly so important . Once the time and years pass by - there's no getting them back. Enjoy and have fun! We love Etsy! Thanks for sharing a wonderful article.

  • cosmiksouls

    joan kelly from cosmiksouls said 4 years ago

    What Etsy is all about ... creatives coming together to grow their biz and brand : ) Thanks for the share !!!!

  • recycledwares

    Nerrissa W from RecycledWares said 4 years ago

    In a fast paced world, it's nice to work from home and create my own existence. I can decide what I am going to do from day to day and make it fit into my ideals for my family and business.

  • MyFiberFolly

    Betsy Alspach from MyFiberFolly said 4 years ago

    I'm still not sure what happened to the "Women's lib" ideas from the 70s. The message was that women could achieve whatever they wanted for themselves and that it all was valuable, and did not have to be dictated by anyone else. In 2013 vernacular that would mean that women don't have to have corporate jobs to be respected. I believe we do have to set up our lives so that we can responsibly pay our bills etc. but we can also make lifestyle choices so that we have fewer bills to pay and more time for creative expression- in whatever form that takes for each of us. Men too!

  • 2TrickPony

    Rachel from 2TrickPony said 4 years ago

    I would love to hear the author's response to this discussion. I did not read her book, so I felt uneasy making an argument on its merits or meaning one way or the other; however, etsy is diverse and I do feel it was weak and misleading on her part to put us all into one category and say, "etsy represents this" This shows the author's ignorance of this huge and creative community, Ignorance of artists and the arts and the way that many different types of people choose to live their lives. *written from my off grid, solar powered studio, where I run a business, thanx to etsy.

  • materialrat

    Margarita Rat from PackRatJewelry said 4 years ago

    It is indeed a difficult issue to easily comprehend. Plus each of us can only speak for oneself. There are so many goals in life and they are all different for different people. I know that Etsy will never be my primary job. It is my creative outlet, something that I truly enjoy. And I would like to keep it at that at least for the time being.

  • aressa

    aressa from OriginalBridalHanger said 4 years ago

    Nice post....I believe Etsy can be whatever you want it to be in your life. It is just a matter of what you want and are looking for...

  • bedouin

    Nicole from Crackerjackarma said 4 years ago

    I love my etsy time and feel lucky to be able to devote a small part of my day to a hobby I enjoy with loads of talented people who I would have never known existed otherwise.

  • studiorandom

    Dana Seilhan from studiorandom said 4 years ago

    We need to stop asking why women are becoming more domestic and start asking why men aren't. Since when is the corporation the ultimate institution of society? You can't live in a corporation. You can't eat or sleep in or fall in love with a corporation. It's just a legal fiction, a piece of paper. We need to start valuing HUMAN BEINGS more, and the basic unit of human society is the family or the tribe. That's where our focus needs to be. All of us, not just women. No part of the feminist movement should ever have been about making women behave in the exact same dysfunctional, life-denying, humanity-denying way that men were expected to behave. The 9-5 rat race was never good for anybody in the first place.

  • patspottery

    Pat Parker from PatsPottery said 4 years ago

    After 50 years of domesticity I am through with almost all of it, but fulfill my creativity doing what your lead photo does, throwing clay.

  • bgrkid64

    Arthur and Michelle Gonzalez from AMGCraftsandPhotos said 4 years ago

    I love that Etsy gives us a place to start our dreams off.

  • jamasters

    Jess Masters from RefinedRock said 4 years ago

    I am thankful every day to be able to express myself through art. It centers me. I go to my Zen place when I am creating. I've done the successful career in the medical field; now its time to live an authentic life!

  • kathiroussel

    kathi roussel from kathiroussel said 4 years ago

    I never had the urge to join corporate culture to begin with-- guess I've always been a bit more of a counter culture person having grown up in the 60s and 70s. I think most humans feel most fulfilled when focused on their creative self's best intentions. Whatever or wherever one can make that happen is a matter of preference and unique to each person's personal goals and ambitions.Some manage to be creative in the corporate realm and others find alternative ways of achieving their best work. The idea that women are retreating from society to hideaway in a crafter's dream world is a bit extreme on Matchar's part. I think there are plenty of women out there working and contributing in the bigger picture - but clearly that's not for everyone. There's a place for each of us in this world and it doesn't have to be considered a travesty if some choose a more low profile existence. A simpler life filled with quality, integrity, care, love for environment, family and one's work is extremely rewarding. This shouldn't be viewed as some kind of cop out--but rather a choice made by those individuals that require such an experience. We have this one life. We owe it to ourselves to choose very wisely what we do and how we spend it. Frankly I think the world is growing extremely weary of corporate big box culture and many are turning toward something more positive by creating a new world. One that offers what's been missing. A world with soul and heart and love.

  • DarburyCottage

    Rosemary Wascher from DarburyCottage said 4 years ago

    I am having the time of my life on Etsy. I am just glad to be able to have fun and be creative with my shop's . Thank's Etsy.

  • WeirDlit

    Jane O from Mawusi said 4 years ago

    It amuses me when I talk to my friends who supposedly have "real jobs." And though I have not read the book, I did like to point out that doing what one loves and trying to make a leaving from it is a full time job. I do everything myself. From choosing fabric to shooting images; to running in front of the camera to model; to editing in photoshop; to posting in my shop; to promoting on Facebook, Twitter, on my own blogs; to contacting bloggers, to makings tons of things to sell at craft fairs -- which may not sell. Sometimes, I am still up at dawn sketching something new, or reading on how to promote better. So how is this an escape from the real life? How is this simple and easy? The only thing which stops from taking the easy way out and finding a sane job is that I love every part of what I do. The time is changing, and with it what we do for a living is changing. It seems to me that we are becoming more aware of what makes us happy and being more daring in choosing this path.

  • ArtyDidact

    Sharon Parker from ArtyDidact said 4 years ago

    Dana Seilhan from studiorandom says: We need to stop asking why women are becoming more domestic and start asking why men aren't. Since when is the corporation the ultimate institution of society? ------------------ A terrific observation. Thank you, Dana, for making it!

  • ArtyDidact

    Sharon Parker from ArtyDidact said 4 years ago

    And thank you, Alison, for this recap of the discussion. It's fascinating to revisit it. I just may have to read the book and see what I think of it for myself!

  • christineshmisteen

    CHRISTINE SHMISTEEN from TheArtOfFinerThings said 4 years ago

    This is a great venue for people like us-- yeah, businesses fail, but unwavering dedication can set you apart and keep you afloat.

  • Radicalroles

    Cheyenne Barr from DeconstructionCrafts said 4 years ago

    Thank you for opening this up to discussion, and taking to hear with Homeward Bound is offering. I'm halfway through, and really enjoying it. I think that it's important to see how our actions are reverberating out there, and how what we do impacts progress made by second wave feminists. We are tearing down corporate dependence, but also vacating our seats in those high-industry arenas is also displacing power. What she says about Etsy business owner success, well... I'm not sure what to argue, except, that we are a bunch of dreamers, and a lot of us have some crazy ideas. Not everything sells, but playing around with innovation in this little marketplace feels more free than any other place I've experience capitalism. Love the book, and still diving through it.

  • Radicalroles

    Cheyenne Barr from DeconstructionCrafts said 4 years ago

    Thank you for featuring this! What Homeward Bound presents is very real, and really fascinating to me. I'm about halfway through it, and I really love hearing the research and the interviews with people from all sides of the table. I do agree that there's a mega surge of small handmade businesses, much to the power of Etsy. I'm not sure what the worry is about seeing that most Etsy businesses aren't successful. That's sort of a given in my mind. We're a bunch of dreamers, and it makes this community as rich as it is in diversity and change. New businesses come and go, shops change... it's a microcosm of capitalism, and the only aspect of Capitalism where I've felt truly connected and empowered. I've really enjoyed her interviews and research on the housewifery, and the impact of women leaving their high seats in industries that have long been starved of feminine influence. I think that it's important for us all to see how our actions contribute to a loss of voice in other arenas as we create anew our own. It's all valid, and really fascinating to me.

  • textilechicken

    textilechicken from textilechicken said 4 years ago

    Thanks for this discussion and post.I am enjoying and learning all the time with etsy,so many creative people with stories just like mine. Thank you all.

  • Dovecotedesign

    Dovecotedesign from DovecoteDesign said 4 years ago

    Um, isn't Etsy a corporation? And becoming more corporate in its approach with every passing day?

  • WiseLines

    Connie Caldwell from WiseLines said 4 years ago

    Wonderful discussion. Certainly satisfying the creative drive we embody and "living the dream" today is a goal of so many etsy members. Having just turned 60 and considering my financial stability, I wonder if by choosing to eschew the standard view of success - which includes savings, conservative spending, planning for retirement (outmoded idea?) - that we jeopardize our financial futures. Granted, "buying in" to how success has been viewed for so many generations can dramatically reduce or totally eliminate the time we have to devote to our creative selves, but I'm hoping that "opting out" doesn't lead to living in poverty... I think it's important to also envision what you want your life to be 30 -40-50 years from now.

  • WackyWanitas

    WackyWanitas from WackyWanitaDesigns said 4 years ago

    Hollie Wilson knows where its at. The first time I saw someone my age (at the time, I was 22) running a successful business, it was my friend Ben and his brother, Jon, and they had developed their own film business--First Scout Productions. They'd found their niche, their market, and they'd just... done it. The second time, it was Samantha and Whitney of Gus & Ruby Letterpress. Both First Scout and Gus & Ruby were self-sufficient businesses, and their owners didn't have to work at anything else. How I longed to be part of something where the businesspeople were so enthused about their work--got to visit their passions every day! That was when I realized I could do it for myself. I made a plan, and now I'm chipping away at it, too. Not self-sufficient yet--but I'm getting there.

  • Oriol

    Oriol Nicolas from Oriol said 4 years ago

    Very inspiring! Thanks for the article!

  • starlightwoods

    Lisa DiSciascio from starlightwoods said 4 years ago

    "If we can liberate our lives and make choices that reflect our core values and intuition, that is a great task." — Tiffany Key of Haru Aki I could not have said this better myself. Etsy has given me freedom to be a better mom and not miss a single thing. Childhood goes so fast, when summer came every year and I worked a full time job outside of my home, it was gut wrenching, I always had a pit in my stomach, feeling pulled in two directions. Now summer is here and my etsy shop is my full time job, I am here with my girls all summer for the first time, no more pit in my stomach, I finally have freedom to support my family and enjoy them at the same time.

  • openrangepres

    Jane from OpenRangePreserve said 4 years ago

    I agree with Dana from Studio Random and Betsy from My Fiber Folly. This is not just about women but about men as well. What are our choices for our lives? What is important to us? I've just gotten started on etsy, and one thing that impressed me from the beginning was the advice on making my shop reflect who I am. As I focused on that idea, I started finding more ways to be myself in this process rather than trying to be someone else's idea of of a seller. Being empowered does not mean being wealthy, but it does mean being ourselves.

  • oceanityhandmade

    Michelle Cornelison from oceanityhandmade said 4 years ago

    Yes, Dovecotedesign, Etsy is a corporation! And one started by men, at that... And currently CEO'd by a man... I'm not saying that makes Etsy bad, I just think a lot of people ooing and ahhing over what Etsy does for women aren't aware.

  • matildecanepagonzale

    Matilde Cánepa González from matildecanepaArtnow said 4 years ago

    Good article to think! I think it's very important to establish bridges between the private and public care which leads us from a feeling and not a fashion-dogma. sorry my English Buenos articulos para reflexionar! Creo que es muy importante establecer los puentes entre el ámbito privado y público, cuidar lo que nos lleva desde un sentir y no una moda-dogma.

  • CafePrimrose

    Amanda Gynther from CafePrimrose said 4 years ago

    Awesome!

  • jackiephotography7

    Jacqueline Almeida from Pictures4Hope said 4 years ago

    i totally agree with these comments :) LOVE this article! Creative outlets are definitely what everyone needs! It's what makes us different than any other creature on this earth!

  • AurumBayJewelry

    AurumBay from AurumBayJewelry said 4 years ago

    From a bank teller, to a retail store manager, to trying to find a fulfilling life as a high school math teacher, I ran the gamut of "normal jobs", even meaningful ones but never met a match for the way I wanted to live. I still tutor, but privately, Public school education has been seriously affected in a bad way, not allowing teachers to do their job. I had made jewelry for friends and family and also working in an actual jewelry store, and one day decided that I could reach more people and could price my work ethically. I don't make money like a regular jewelry store does but I live a very happy life because the people I service have wonderful thoughts and stories behind the jewelry that they buy and know what they want, and what it means to them and I get to help forge that meaning into a beautiful, physical item of jewelry. It is a very special life that I now lead and I LOVE it!

  • ArtDecoDame

    Desiree from ArtDecoDame said 4 years ago

    I deal in vintage so my process is a little different than crafters but that is one thing I love about Etsy is its allowed me to take something I'm passionate about and make a living from it.Its very important to me to be green and I know it is with others too.That's the beauty of what I sell is we get to use things that already exist in the world.And I wouldn't say people are becoming more domesticated I'd say there are in general more caring consumers out there.Its easier to know where something came from when you make it yourself.Between poor work conditions out there and so much toxic stuff I think has fueled the need for people to do it themselves or rely on local markets or support small business's instead.

  • FluffyFlowers

    FluffyFlowers from FluffyFlowers said 4 years ago

    I'm headed to the library to pick up that book.

  • SusanFaye

    Susan Faye from SusanFayePetProjects said 4 years ago

    My only objection is that the book and this discussion doesn't include men, who are also embracing "a new domesticity", which I see alive and well here in the Portland Oregon area and on Etsy, two places where "humanism" seems to be replacing "feminism".

  • PennyBirchWilliams

    Penny Birch-Williams from PennyBirchWilliams said 4 years ago

    I commented on the original blog post already, but wanted to add that, to me, moving beyond conquering the corporate culture is an evolution of feminism into, as Susan Faye says, becoming humanism. What was achieved in the feminist movement has moved on to where we have freedom of choice to the point where we can -almost- take it for granted. Women don't need permission to aspire to becoming CEO of a big corporation OR of their own small business (and neither do men). How about if we simply embrace our freedom to choose what our own hearts desire, and let others do the same.

  • emberair

    emberair from EmberandAir said 4 years ago

    That book sounds very enticing!

  • laramored

    Anemone from AnemoneReadsVintage said 4 years ago

    thanks for the followup post on this topic!

  • SHM2013

    Silvia from MarinaBosettiDesigns said 4 years ago

    I really enjoyed the individual comments. I love making things from scratch, it is so rewarding and fun.

  • i4modernart

    Nandita Albright from ContemporaryArtDaily said 4 years ago

    Etsy really has been able to give me a creative facet to really let my artwork shine true and freely upon the web. THANK YOU!

  • donnieleandro

    Donnie from DonniesDiscounts said 4 years ago

    im a DIY kind of guy and self taught on certain things...damn im good

  • xutian1

    ya mo from 2013color said 4 years ago

    My love

  • dominna

    Katrina Dzerkale from Dominna said 4 years ago

    awesome fallowup

  • korenkwan

    Koren Kwan from GarasuWonderland said 3 years ago

    interesting article!

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